So three opinions here:
Beetle01 - ses its fyn to charge a fee to recover cash (cuz of dead end nodes)
Toady - Free for all and wug growth is your choice
Myself - aslong as cash is being used to improve wug(upgrade current equipment or add additional links) as only a select few on the wug is willing to do that because we aware dead nodes will foreva stay dead and never improve it. Aslong as the cash is used for improvement and not personal gain.
I think there is another aspect thatâs not being discussed. This is my personal view and not necessarily shared by the comm.
There is significant risk if money is being donated to individuals where there may not be accountability for the money being spent. At worst someone accepting donations can take the money and run. As you heard the CTWUG donations are at least kept track and soon weâll even have proper financials so the money is kept track of and used as appropriate.
Iâd hate to have to explain to potential new wuggers who didnât have a lot of money to start with that person XYZ was not affiliated with the CTWUG in official capacity and therefore we canât help if they stole their money.
Beetle has some valid points. Iâm happy people to fund it in this way but people are being held at ransom for some costs in some cases and it is sometimes quite difficult to verify if someone is trying to make money of of this. Again in this case funding through the CTWUG has benefits. CTWUG acts as a fair middleman in this case.
Recovering costs after buying is a slippery slope for me and very difficult to verify.
That is true Spin. But your current comment on recovering costs, the person should be made aware you cannot expect to recover costs if u decide to leave as thats a choic you must make. As I keep telling my wife evens if I spend 20k since I join the wug and tomorrow im off I wont cry about cash cuz what I received from the wug a person cannot put a price on that cuz if it wasnt for the wug I wudnt have gotten that joy, so spending R5000 evens on wug for a period of 5 years is nothing compared to the joy im getting frm it cuz if I didnt spend that R5k on the wug I wud hav spent it on shit that doesnt bring me join eviday like the wug does. But thats just my opinion because IM A HARDCORE WUGGER till I die and wug is my life.
On the personal side:
Letâs throw the spanner in the works: My HS (100% owned by myself) supplies quite a few users although I have a single sector with about 4 clients. To date this HS has cost me in excess of R35K, so what would the connection fee be to recover my costs? I did not join CTWUG to drive any of the cars, snipe somebody, or whatever else. The sole reason for joining is knowledge, and this continues building at a major pace.
As mentioned previously, I have no problems with any donations off the CTWUG books, as long as it is prior to the purchase of the equipment. Once the equipment is purchased, it has been paid, so no outstanding amount on it. Why should anybody pay at this time for paid-off equipment? If there is a failure of the current equipment (or a failure is imminent), by all means ask for donations, but these MUST BE VOLUNTARY.
If you feel that you need to donate something to your areaâs growth and stability, deposit it in the CTWUG bank account allocated to your area, and use it as required from there for the required equipment when and where it is requiredâŚ
My view as a member of comms:
Our guidelines (constitution and rules) effectively stipulate that no member shall be charged, be it forced donation, connection fee, or any other form. The closest it gets is that the recipient of the service should at least be grateful an considerate towards the âsupplyingâ member. At no point is any value coupled or stipulated, and the consideration remains voluntary. The guidelines mentioned above is what we as comms have to abide by, and enforce where required. Should any âruleâ of any nature in the mentioned documents not be suitable, any member is welcome to propose a change. It should however be noted that approving charges under these docs will most likely have a ripple effect on the proposed NPO registrationâŚ
By banning this kind of finance model, youâre basically limiting growth of CTWUG by putting the entire financial burden on the person who is already generously hosting the sector, and giving dead end sector clients a free ride.
Ctwug has a finance system were we help wuggers fund their projects and we seldom say no in fact cant off hand remember a project that we did not approve(some projects we did make some changes to off course after consulting with the admins).These projects sometimes takes a bit longer for equipment to be bought but we do our best to do it as soon as possible. Iâm just stating this as there are people that could not be aware of the finance system.
Point 1.6 refers to donations and membership fees to the GROUP, not to contributing to the cost of equipment that is being put up for YOU to connect to.
The group being ctwug and the network is being managed by the group, so for me any (forced)donations being made towards the network is also made to the group.We the committee is the guardians of the wug and sometimes we need to make the hard decisions.
I Agree with Beetle on this point. You basically stopping growth as a whole, its a different story the person pockets the money for personal gain that is understandable then ban or kick them from the wug.
We are not keeping track of these amounts and what is being bought with the money.
I have also explained last week to my area that we would like to build a mast and it would cost each person to give a R100 they were more than happy to give it as it would benefit our entire area as well as the highsite.
This is how it should work, something new to improve the area. But the next guy joining should not be forced to pay after the mast has been built and installed - good example of crowed funding.
As for the process i took when getting these clients were interviews with current people on wug in our area to be present and selecting people that were willing to help our area grow and in the last year alone that as proven to be a major success as Leda has now 5 OSPF links with the correct people helping the area grow.
Can you elaborate on how these interviews worked? And were potential clients turned down?
So please be informed that taking money for person gain is very wrong and should be stopped but if its to grow an area into what Leda has become how can you want to put a stop to that.
As stated before we are not keeping track of what is being bought with the money
To be honest this is a messy situation but please get facts straight on what really happens in a area and not just hear one side of a story.
We had complaints, the reason why we didnât contact the clients is because we still(in our opinion) didnât have good enough evidence and this is why we never contacted the wuggers that was accused of forcing connection fees. We decided we should start with a clean slate and let people know how we will deal with future situations like these complaints.
If they are being asked a connection fee it is NOT a donation. Plain and simple.
Hence the title, in the mails the wuggers called it a âdonationâ to connect.
People should keep in mind that WUG is a very expensive hobby some people have spent thousands and thousands and the reality if people arent going to help out with money nothing will grow thats reality.
There will always be people that will donate, join meetings and installations. Just as there will always be people who will do nothing. You will do well to remember that CTwug is not a hobby for everyone on the wug.
Those 5 people made a choice and now you are wanting to force that choice upon a new person? Iâve spent multiple times more than those 5 people in both time and money over the years Iâve been a member and would never expect anyone to pay for a choice I made.
My sentiment exactly
[B]Scenario A:
Assuming we obey the rules, and the rule is that the maximum people on a sector is 8 people.
Letâs say for argument sake, that sector and the RB that runs it costs you R2000 in total including pole, cable and whatnot.
If I have 4 people that can connect to it and I approach them and say it will cost them each R250 to connect since I need to buy equipment, I raise R1000 from them towards the kit. I go and buy it, putting in R1000 of my own money. I connect the 4 people - to this point nothing that I have done has benefited me in any way and I have created 4 dead end nodes.
I can still connect 4 additional people - another 4 dead end nodes.
Over time, 4 more people want to connect and can connect to that sector. As each on joins I ask them to pay the R250 towards the equipment I have already paid for, recouping my cost.
I recover my R2000, paying for the kit costs me nothing personally, Iâm still paying for the power to run the kit and maintaining it - and still not benefiting myself, but rather helping the WUG grow.
[/B]
It will happen some point in time that one of your links needs replacing or even a link in your area need asking for donations will be the way to go. I always believe having clients on your sector can only be a benefit to you and the other clients on that sector.
[B]Scenario B
Same cost - R2000 for the sector.
If I have 4 people that can connect to it and they approach me, asking me to connect, and i connect them. Over time 4 more people connect, and it costs me R2000 to connect those 8 people who now just had to buy a CPE. They are dead end nodes.
Which scenario is more likely going to contribute to WUG growth?
Nobody is forcing a donation or a âsubscriptionâ, youâre being asked to contribute to a part of the hardware used to connect you to CTWUG. If it was a PTP link, youâd be expected to pay for both sides, so why should a sector not be allowed to face the same scructure?
Just because someone is trying to recover costs and not pre-finance them, the effect is EXACTLY the same.
Of course, asking silly amounts like R1500 is ridiculous, but asking for a contribution to hardware costs is absolutely fine, and disallowing it is madness.
THe very foundation of CTWUG-funded upgrades - in part or whole - is designed around the structure of crowd-sourced funding!
Look at the current projects - your Redeamer2210 project is asking for 50% of funding to come from users - users that likely will connect to the new sector.
Whatâs the difference?[/B]
One good thing about this scenario is that the sector is yours
I think chances are slim that all 8 clients will be lechers only
On the redeamer2210 issue the project will stay outstanding untill the 50% has been collected so this of course is up to the clients the clients should also be infrormed that this could only benefit them.
Good thing about going PTP is that the clients will at least own the equipment
On a side note the benefits of sectors are that you use one frequency and also less space on the pole.
this thread is being derailedâŚ
Plain and simple there is no 2 ways about the difference:
Donations for up keep of the site for everyone is acceptable.
Donations taken for personal gain i.e Ambro against the rules .
@ Orgon
No members were turned down in any process of the interviews its just a standard interview such as introducing yourself and tellin the area more about yourself as my area I build we all are very good friends and like to keep events at each other places for the mere purpos that we shudnt just communicate due to wug but also grow friendships most of my best relationships I have with people are from the wug as I see the wug as more than just wug but a community of friends
Not cool bro please do not use people names as examples. I know that guy personally from playin games together to meeting personally and visiting each others places and that is not no bro
I have modified some posts slightly. Meanings not changed. PM me or read the rules if not sure why.
Tanx spin please modify were names were used as said by Orgon a clean slat for everybody so no need to try and make examples of people
lol ⌠serious , this is common knowledge.
Ai, and censorship begins.
Iâm out.
This topic is debatable but off course we all must comply to what the rules are and i will. I must admit that my area used the cost structure of recovering costs as that was the way previously practiced. I discussed with Beetle001 this same topic about 2 years ago and it was deemed ok to charge for equipment cost as long as there is no profiting. This has helped in growing the wug significantly and made it affordable for new wuggers to connect. There was never a problem or an incident with anyone until recently when someone didnât want to contribute.
When i speak about a contribution, it means contributing towards equipment/site costs and not an admin fee.
The problem is when a new wugger does not want to contribute towards equipment cost at all. The cost of equipment is usually shared amongst all the wuggers connected to the sector so that everyone has equal contributions. There has been times when we would cover a significant portion of the initial cost if there wasnât enough new wuggers to distribute the high cost. This helped in keeping the equipment contribution low and made it more affordable for a new wugger to join. Money was later recovered as new wugger joins. New wugger is happy paying the low cost of equipment. There hasnât been a case whereby a surplus was generated but should there be a surplus, the agreement was that it be distributed equally so that everyone contributes exactly the same.
Hereâs some scenarios
Scenario 1 - Previous practiced method
Sector and rb purchased for R3000. Only 1 wugger wants to connect but i know thereâs a high possibility for future wuggers so i decide to cover R2600 and only charge the new wugger R400 as a contribution towards equipment cost as I would like to help to get the new wugger connected. As a another wugger joins, Money is recouped until costs are covered and if more needs to join, surplus is distributed evenly. No wugger has ever been denied connection. People can join and pay later when they have the funds. Months down the line, a wugger leaves and wants his money back. The site owner pays the money to the wugger and R400 is now owing to him if a new wugger joins. All are happy and no problem arises. This method has worked well.
Scenario 2 - CTWUG new rule
New wugger needs to join. R3000 is required as i want to put up a sector since i have space limitation for future links. The wugger has to buy the equipment if not he cannot connect. The wugger raises the funds after saving for months, etc. A new wugger wants to connect but doesnât want to contribute. CTWUG policy states that he shouldnât have to contribute if he doesnât want to.The wugger who purchased the equipment disagrees that the new comer should not have to pay but has to comply anyways. The Sector breaks and needs to be replaced. The new wugger is asked to contribute and still does not want to pay. The wugger who initially paid wants his wug restored but is not willing to pay as the new wuggger/s is/are now due to pay. How do we deal with this?
Perhaps the main problem here is transparency. Either when a sector is being purchased and the site owner is able to pay the balance to make the purchase quicker, CTWUG makes note of the contributions made and manages the recouping of the money or the site owner does not contribute at all to prevent any type of problem arising or CTWUG pays for the balance of the sector purchase to lessor the equipment cost for new wuggers or CTWUG purchases the sector equipment so that a new wugger does not have to cover any other costs other than his own.
Having issues posting. just a test
Personally i think that we will have constant problems when we have clients that simply have no interest in donating anything towards a site they connected too. From what i read so far it would be better to simply say no to the new comer. Or else give him only one option and that is to go ptp or nothing at all. I paid alot to be on the wug. So he can pay too( for his own equipment for a ptp link). Or if i have a sector and he doesnt want to pay - just move on bra.
But this is what i would suggest if i have a sector:
Set an amount to what you want from sector(doesnt have to be the same amount as what you originally paid for it - lets say R1500) and also how many clients you want on that sector( lets say 10). When the first client comes you charge him R1500 - basicly selling it to him. When the second client comes he sound pay the first client R750 - to own 50%. 3rd client pays R500 - splitting the R500 to the two owners to own a 3rd. And so it goes on till all 10 slots are taken. If all 10 slots are taken simply tell the next person to move on bra. In this case each client will own the same portion of the equipment. No-one paid more then the other. If a client leaves it is his responsibility to sell his share. if he doesnt sell his share it will stay his. the owner of the site therefor also has the option of buying out the slots if he later doesnt want to have clients on a sector or buy a certain amount of slots if he wants less clients(if im owner of site and i only want 5 clients then i buy the other 5 slots.
If equipment breaks:
Forced fees must be applied to replace the broken equipment> or else negotiate to provide a service towards the replacement of such equipment. If a client fails to do either his or her slot must be taken and sold to a new comer> no refunds. If owner owns a few slots he also has to contribute the persentage portion he owns for repaires.
Set an amount to what you want from sector(doesnt have to be the same amount as what you originally paid for it - lets say R1500) and also how many clients you want on that sector( lets say 10). When the first client comes you charge him R1500 - basicly selling it to him. When the second client comes he sound pay the first client R750 - to own 50%. 3rd client pays R500 - splitting the R500 to the two owners to own a 3rd. And so it goes on till all 10 slots are taken. If all 10 slots are taken simply tell the next person to move on bra. In this case each client will own the same portion of the equipment. No-one paid more then the other. If a client leaves it is his responsibility to sell his share. if he doesnt sell his share it will stay his. the owner of the site therefor also has the option of buying out the slots if he later doesnt want to have clients on a sector or buy a certain amount of slots if he wants less clients(if im owner of site and i only want 5 clients then i buy the other 5 slots.
If forced donations was allowed, this would be a good system to work with. Forcing wuggers to pay is against the wug principals.
Yes it is unfair that there are so many that do nothing and a few have to carry the wug on their backs, this is just how it works.
I donât throw tantrums because I have to do so much more than some wuggers. Iâm just gratefull that there is a community like ctwug that has given me so many hours of free learning experience may it be installs at highsite, routing, hardware or even making some new friends. For me itâs been worth the while may it be money or effort that I do put it, because for me this is a true hobby.
The suggestion isnt actually a forced system. It merely gives the new comer an option to either purchase his own equipment for the giving end to do ptp or become a shareholder in equipment already bought. The HS still remains the responsibility of its owner and the sector the clients with the added bonus of being able to get back some of the money spend on the sector( for all clients). Can be a ruling! All clients gets introduced via the sector owners.
And yes i also enjoy the wug and dont mind spending Rxxxxx to build it up. We have a good set of rules to follow but as any âcompanyâ it needs to adapt to changes as everything around us also always changes. We have a democratic system (wug rules) but we evolving people. Perhaps hold an election on it - anyway not sure how these things work, but if it can be done - why not!
Atleast we will sort out the thing about having client on a sector once and for all.
And for those who have equipment for a ptp link perhaps to rather sell their equipment to the person who wants to connect to that pacific equipment available - that way its the new comers equipment and no queries will come out afterwards.
Everyone owns what they connect to.
If i can put a scenario out there:
If i have clients (lets say 5). they all on a sector that i own and maintain. Then the sector gives problems and 2/5 clients still gets wug and the others wug drop completely of is so bad that by merely turning the sector doesnt resolve the issue.
One of the 3/5 clients starts asking when is his wug gonna be fixed. You perhaps have an idea of what the problem might be (thinking that it is small @ low cost to myself). You replace a few things and it doesnt work - same problem. Now most of us work and timing is always an issue when you need to fix something. You find out that in order to fix the problem you gonna have to spend Rxxxx, of which you know you do not have the Rxxxx immediately. The âdown wuggersâ keeps calling you and texting you to fix the problem but is unwilling to donate to fix as it is my equipment.
What do i do? Can i just leave it as is and let the âdown wuggersâ complain all they want( i mean they must wait). Whoâs responsibility is it to now fix cause you didnt charge them anything when they connected and they not willing to spend anything(money or labour) to fix the problem. Like you said no forced donations and no connection fees can be charged.
Oh and can someone perhaps send me the complete ctwug rules. Just want to see if what you have is the same as what i have
The issue was about the sector and if there is a existing one with slots available the person that want to connect should not be charged a fee. I do however think that when something needs to be fix/replaced donations if required can be made, if no donations and this means that people are wugless the clients will just have to wait till and when the host decide to fix/replace a sector. If clients want all that will be on the sector at that stage to donate/contribute that will be for there benefit. If no donations you will not tell me to replace a sector that is for the benefit of other wuggers. Also all ptp equipment I host will not be replaced in case of breakage by me but by the client that benefits from that link. That also seems fair.