Connection fees (forced donations)

CTWUG General
1

Hi everyone

Over the last few we months we had situations were clients complained that they were ask for a donation before they could connect in other words a connection fee. We the committee took our time in making a final decisions on where we stand in regards with donations that translates into a connection fee.

From our constitution

1.6. Members shall not be charged a membership fee and all donations to the group are voluntary.

This clearly states that all donations should be voluntary

The decision was unanimous. http://wiki.ctwug.za.net/Committee

The wuggers access to CTwug will be removed if found guilty of this offence from here on wards.

An example
Node mannemarak puts up a sector at his house which cost him R2000 now he decides he would like to get his money back by asking a R400 connection fee. This allows for to many variables stuff that could go very wrong and will not be allowed.

Areas should instead of having a connection fee system where they have cash in their kitty to upgrade or install new links, look at only asking for donations when it is needed. Please feel free to approach the committee if you want to create a project where wuggers can donate towards.

If this is not clear enough please create a scenario and we will give our input.

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2

I really don’t understand some people…

Here I’m too scared to even ask for a donation towards my fuel when having to go do a test scan by someone but yet some guys have no qualms in requesting for donations to get the guys connected… F’d up I say man.

Anyway… Ogon, rules are rules so I do hope that those found to be practising this will be held accountable. It’s not right that they do this to new wuggers…

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I’ve also added this thread to the new user guide on the wiki

http://wiki.ctwug.za.net/Start_Here

Here I’m too scared to even ask for a donation towards my fuel when having to go do a test scan by someone but yet some guys have no qualms in requesting for donations to get the guys connected… F’d up I say man.

From the testkit wiki Testkit - CTWUG Wiki

If an admin is requested to do a scan for you then please be considerate with regards to their time and expenses…

4

finally dit moes al lankal gebeur het net n jammerte dit het solank gevat

5

Donations - towards the site up keep i.e upgrades e.t.c acceptable.
Donations - for out right line connectivity i call BS.

6

I don’t agree with this at all.

By banning this kind of finance model, you’re basically limiting growth of CTWUG by putting the entire financial burden on the person who is already generously hosting the sector, and giving dead end sector clients a free ride.

Point 1.6 refers to donations and membership fees to the GROUP, not to contributing to the cost of equipment that is being put up for YOU to connect to. This is a gross misinterpretation of the constitution, which would need to be amended should you want to implement this rule, which is nonsensical to start with.

In fact, we’ve practiced this through the funding model of the WUG for adding new equipment, when we make it 100% user-funded - the effect is the same.

If they want to ‘crowd source’ the cost of that sector/rb, there really shouldn’t be a problem with that.

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If they were indeed a “generous” person then they wouldn’t be forcing connection charges upon users to get their money back. If you don’t have the money to just write off then don’t buy it. If i was a user that was charged say R400 to connect to a sector, then I would request a percentage stake in that equipment. or at the very least be refunded my money back should I leave.

Here’s a scenario. Owner A charges me RX to connect… I pay. 2 years down the line I move now Owner B also requests Rx to connect. Will “Owner A” pay “Owner B” my connection fee seeing as I have already paid it.

Allowing this opens the whole situation up to abuse and I have no doubt in my mind that people are currently abusing it.

Pre-funding an upgrade is a different story, whether it’s internal or through the wug but if you have a slot open on a sector and a user is able to connect, you are obliged by the constitution to connect them.

8

Fully agreed with one exception: How do you crowd-source equipment that already exist?

Personally, I have no issue with everybody clubbing together for a new sector (or equipment for a BB-link), but this would be planning to buy new equipment.

9

Some complaints we had in past

  1. AP charging wuggers R1500 per connection - bit much don’t you guys think;)
  2. Guy asking R600 for connection reason being that the other guys on the sector already paid and any extra funds will then go into the area to upgrade links.
  3. This was not a compliant directed at the committee but well at an area of ctwug - guy paid R500 for a sector which he and others clients(they also contributed) connected to, when he moved a few months later he demanded his R500 rand back and threatend the area that he would take them to court. The area just decided this wasn’t worth the fight and gave the guy his R500 back and I think they were happy to see the last of him.

Crowed funding works very well in both bothasig and KM and it is a system that we the committee encourages because it helps grows ctwug at a faster pace.

@Toady it’s true that some guys would want there money back, but people should see there donations as what is it a donation.

10

I Agree with Beetle on this point. You basically stopping growth as a whole, its a different story the person pockets the money for personal gain that is understandable then ban or kick them from the wug.

A good Example is Highsite: Leda

I pay a yearly rent at Leda of R2300

Currently Leda has these OSFP Links:

Tfyre (Groove+Grid)
Blackhawk (Groove+Grid)
Gordon808 (30dbi Dish+RB)
Speedybull 2 (27dbi Dish+RB)
Oldschool (30dbi DIsh+RB)

Then also it has a Dual Pole sector for clients, and has a Dual pole PTP link to myself.

Last week i have arranged another OSPF link to kuilsriver area equipment was already setup.

My point to all this is that what is being call FORCED MONEY was used to buy most of that equipment and the people connected to Leda was explained all this and they were happy with it all because more links equals better speeds. The people that does complain are the people that expect all this to be free and do not care about other people that put money into a site they just want to be on the wug for nothing yet other people like myself has spent thousands to build a highsite. I have also explained last week to my area that we would like to build a mast and it would cost each person to give a R100 they were more than happy to give it as it would benefit our entire area as well as the highsite.

As for the process i took when getting these clients were interviews with current people on wug in our area to be present and selecting people that were willing to help our area grow and in the last year alone that as proven to be a major success as Leda has now 5 OSPF links with the correct people helping the area grow.

Before leda had 20 people/clients with 1x Link to the wug and nobody wanted to make wug grow there moto was “why should i care i am already on the wug” that led to Leda going down for 6months with 0x links. Then i got together with fellow friends and a decision was made to only select people that are dedicated to the wug as i am. One year later Leda is a massive Highsite with 5x OSPF links and a 12metre mast coming very soon with no issues or complaints from any clients.

So please be informed that taking money for person gain is very wrong and should be stopped but if its to grow an area into what Leda has become how can you want to put a stop to that.

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11

To be honest this is a messy situation but please get facts straight on what really happens in a area and not just hear one side of a story. I will not mention any names but we had a similar issue in our area regarding that 20x people that was on the 1x link these people decided lets collect money for upgrades i informed them that is all good it would help as this person did not want to use his sectors. I informed them look buy 2x sectors and also buy at least 1x extra kit for an OSPF link due to one link to CTWUG cannot carry 20x people then you looking at 50kbs speed they agreed to do so these people opened up there own bank account and all that and people donated the cash. Please keep in mind i did not see any of this cash or was not involved in any way. Later down the link these 20x people complained of speed issues i asked the person holding the cash when is the equipment being bought and i was told straight why should they buy equipment for a OSPF link at Leda they went to go buy the hulle equipment leda then died for 6 months as explained above as there was no links and the person who bought the equipment basically messed up for person gain. The people then complained and i told them please do not complain by me as you guys came up with this stupid idea and said that guy should be your Admin and please go to him and ask for your money because from what i see the equipment was on his Tower he just had no links to the wug and leda was dead and i was told i must go press leda up my you know were because they are not going to help a highsite but rather help a site they going to connect to were they bought the sectors which does not have wug as this person made them believe that what they were doing is right upgrading his tower and not the actual high site giving all the areas below it wug and that tower

12

Each person paying R100 towards a mast is completely fine and completely different than requiring someone to pay to pay a subscription fee to be connected to the wug.

13

If they are being asked a connection fee it is NOT a donation. Plain and simple.

Funding is not being argued here. The mere fact of having to pay a fee in order to connect to an available access point is. This is my understanding of the situation.

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14

So then instead of somebody saying “Connection Fee” they should rather say “Donation” towards the site for upgrades because a person cant now say in the case that 5 people put cash together to build R10k site for example and number 6 comes along he wants to join yet each person spent R2k and yet they give extra everytime for upgrades person 6 shud just benifit from there work?and there hard earned cash? So Toady if u ride car to work everyday your petrol is R1000 a month and I tel you il give you a donation of R50 can I drive with you eviday seein as we work next to each other would you be happy with that? Thats mos the same principal. People should keep in mind that WUG is a very expensive hobby some people have spent thousands and thousands and the reality if people arent going to help out with money nothing will grow thats reality. Then it would be said “why should I upgrade to benifit other people”. Call it a donation or Connection Fee at the end of the day its still money nomatter how u label it. Let not forget D-Day it was in BOLD stated everybody should give because evibody uses the service and it costs money to upkeep that services. The exact same applies to highsite. My point here is if you not willing to spend money on wug then dont join buttom line cuz people like that will just bring wug down at the end of the day money is required nomata how you label it

15

Basically, yes. Other people will benefit from the time, money, blood sweat and tears that people put in. It’s a community network and that’s just how it’s defined. It’s unfair to expect new users to pay R1000’s because R1000’s have already been spent. That’s against the spirit and purpose of ctwug. There are also legailties in requiring fees since CTWUG is not a commercial service and not licensed for that.

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Then i think it would just be best to tell people do not go the sector way rather tell the person i do not agree to join the sector and pay the example R1000 i would rather go the PTP way and put up R1500 equipment at your place provided you have the pole space. That is why i do not believe in sectors it comes with to much issues best is go the PTP way and the person provides equipment both sides. Only reason certain people go the sector way is because they do not have pole space example is Leda hence the mast is being built.

17

A fee and a donation are worlds apart, you can’t just call it something else to suite yourself. If you want to demand money for access then call it for what it is… a fee.

because a person cant now say in the case that 5 people put cash together to build R10k site for example and number 6 comes along he wants to join yet each person spent R2k and yet they give extra everytime for upgrades person 6 shud just benifit from there work?and there hard earned cash?

Those 5 people made a choice and now you are wanting to force that choice upon a new person? I’ve spent multiple times more than those 5 people in both time and money over the years I’ve been a member and would never expect anyone to pay for a choice I made.

So Toady if u ride car to work everyday your petrol is R1000 a month and I tel you il give you a donation of R50 can I drive with you eviday seein as we work next to each other would you be happy with that? Thats mos the same principal.

Of course I would not be happy, purely based on the fact that that R50 is making you even more money by going to work. You would be profiting off my loss. I don’t see a client of a sector profiting off a connection, and if they are they should be banned. This is not the place to make money.

Edit: If you were someone that only earned R2k/month and I knew you I probably wouldn’t even accept money… it’s all relative. Like wise if you were someone earning R12k/month and you only offered R50, I’d tell you where to stick it.

People should keep in mind that WUG is a very expensive hobby some people have spent thousands and thousands and the reality if people arent going to help out with money nothing will grow thats reality. Then it would be said “why should I upgrade to benifit other people”.
Im well aware of the costs but it is a hobbie you, as well as the rest of us, chose to participate in.

Let not forget D-Day it was in BOLD stated everybody should give because evibody uses the service and it costs money to upkeep that services. The exact same applies to highsite. My point here is if you not willing to spend money on wug then dont join buttom line cuz people like that will just bring wug down at the end of the day money is required nomata how you label it

D-Day is and will always be a voluntary donation and not forced so I don’t understand the example. If you want money to upkeep your site through donations, then by all means ask for it but if a user chose to not participate, that is his decision and should not result in a disconnection nor denying of access.

18

Well said points Toady I totally agree as I said before if the person is taking the cash for personal gain to go buy say wateva its wrng but if they taking that connection fee cost to do upgrades and buy equipment I do not think its wrng as it helps the person out paying the connection fee to get abit faster speeds and the highsite and area and improve wug as a whole then it should be cool. There is a big difrence takin cash for yourself or using it to improve wug

19

Let’s paint a scenario here:

Scenario A:
Assuming we obey the rules, and the rule is that the maximum people on a sector is 8 people.
Let’s say for argument sake, that sector and the RB that runs it costs you R2000 in total including pole, cable and whatnot.

If I have 4 people that can connect to it and I approach them and say it will cost them each R250 to connect since I need to buy equipment, I raise R1000 from them towards the kit. I go and buy it, putting in R1000 of my own money. I connect the 4 people - to this point nothing that I have done has benefited me in any way and I have created 4 dead end nodes.

I can still connect 4 additional people - another 4 dead end nodes.

Over time, 4 more people want to connect and can connect to that sector. As each on joins I ask them to pay the R250 towards the equipment I have already paid for, recouping my cost.

I recover my R2000, paying for the kit costs me nothing personally, I’m still paying for the power to run the kit and maintaining it - and still not benefiting myself, but rather helping the WUG grow.

Scenario B
Same cost - R2000 for the sector.

If I have 4 people that can connect to it and they approach me, asking me to connect, and i connect them. Over time 4 more people connect, and it costs me R2000 to connect those 8 people who now just had to buy a CPE. They are dead end nodes.

Which scenario is more likely going to contribute to WUG growth?

Nobody is forcing a donation or a “subscription”, you’re being asked to contribute to a part of the hardware used to connect you to CTWUG. If it was a PTP link, you’d be expected to pay for both sides, so why should a sector not be allowed to face the same scructure?

Just because someone is trying to recover costs and not pre-finance them, the effect is EXACTLY the same.

Of course, asking silly amounts like R1500 is ridiculous, but asking for a contribution to hardware costs is absolutely fine, and disallowing it is madness.

THe very foundation of CTWUG-funded upgrades - in part or whole - is designed around the structure of crowd-sourced funding!
Look at the current projects - your Redeamer2210 project is asking for 50% of funding to come from users - users that likely will connect to the new sector.

What’s the difference?

20

Not to sound rude Toady in any way, but you connect to SS which is a client to a CTWUG owned HS via Sector so I do get were you are coming from but also try to understand how it feels for people that built massive HS which is evens bigger than ctwug owned sites that they just didnt do for themselves but also to improve wug so if they use that say connection fee to improve wug evens more then how is that a problem cuz it would benefit people like yourself who connects indirectly to that HS